Curse

Martin Firestorm · Aug 03, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Interesting analysis of one of the biggest non-problems I have ever seen. You may quote from google for definitons of some of these dramatic terms you choose to use like extortion, but you clearly do not have a clue what that means. No one is doing anything against their will. At most, you're established that perhaps some of these "clients" have not fully thought out the odds, etc. Perhaps. Hardly anything worth all this fuss. BTW, did it ever occur to you that some people could not care less about your precious zaishen title? So who's getting ripped off now?

Yoom Omer · Aug 03, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

I don't think you should regard the Zkeys as the Zdrops. They aren't the same. The client give 1 key and gets 2drops = 2Keys, and the provider takes 1 key and gets 2 keys. Everyone is happy. What if the client got 2 everlasting tonics? That can also happen, its a game of chance.

Spookii · Aug 04, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

I guess I'll throw in my two cents.

When I first started hearing about the ZChest service, I thought it was a good idea. Some people don't rightly care about the Zaishen points. They just want the possibility of getting a good drop. So, by letting someone else use their ZKeys and then throwing in another few of their own and letting them pick up the drops, everyone gets what they want.

I understand what the original poster is talking about, and why he's calling it a scam. But I don't think it's as much of a scam as it is unfair to those that rightfully bought/earned their ZKeys.

IMO, it's the same thing as people who gained the Incorrigible Ale Hound title by sitting around for the actual 10,000 minutes drunk getting angry at those who used the map travel method to gain their title in 5-6 hours.

Not trying to put words in your mouth or anything, but I think you're more ticked at the fact that people are getting their title for half the price that you had to pay. People know and understand that the ZChest is all about luck. And they're not being scammed out of their ZPoints, because they obviously didn't care about them if they came to someone who offered a ZKey service.

imnotyourmother · Aug 04, 2009, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Lets look at this thing from a different angle.

1) You have the title so who cares.

2) Presearing economy is in the tank cause of the GotH. I used to run Ales at the bentons at a rate of 62 an hour. I would play for a couple of hours a night and get 2 black dye/day. I would sell my 1 black dye for 2 in post making 840,000 gold a month. Now ales are worth 50 gold and would take me 5 hours a day to make the same gold! So they destroyed pre market. Point is, well, who cares.

3) People are stupid - generally. Just look at Dateline NBC. They did an expose on Lottery Tickets. What Idiot would risk a fine and 3 months in jail to buy a lottery ticket for half its value? So here to people think that if I open the chest and get an everlasting tonic that I will give it to them if it dropps? ARE YOU MAD? Who cares.

4) People can not "do the math". I am trading Gifts of the Huntsman (in pre now cause ale runs are dead) for 350 gold each. I am selling 5 of them and someone offers me, well they do not know what 350 times 5 is. They ask how much is that? I said just give me 1800 gold and will call it even. So they do. Is this a scam? Nope cause they can not count and agreed on the price! So, who cares right?

And finally,

5) You have the title so who cares.

Dosearius Takerius · Aug 04, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

I understand the logic of why someone might do this service, what I don't understand is why for this price.

What is so hard to understand here? I've seen several people respond to this point already...

BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO!

I've never bought a single z-key and I don't intend to start...quite frankly, I think buying any title is just plain stupid. But what others do with their keys/money is up to them.

You sound a lot like a spoiled child that is ticked off that some 'other' kid got the same toy as you without having to 'buy' 7500 keys...

It must be awful when you rank emote someone and nobody is impressed.

Skye Marin · Aug 05, 2009, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by immortius

Absolute value of the items involved is irrelevant.

What you have here are two parties that both want to expend their Z-keys, but are after different things. Party A wants items and party B wants rank points. The keys would be expended either way. The service allows party A to double the number of items they receive while allowing party B to double the amount of points they get - without requiring any extra expenditure of keys on either party's part.

Of course, there is a degree of risk involved in the service, especially for party A who has to give his keys to party B and runs the risk of party B picking up any decent drops. But that is another issue.

This.

This is where the heart of the matter is.

While the OP is whining that the item-taker is being scammed, they know very well that the cost of a key is directly linked to the frequency of rare, high-costed items.

You can't win if you don't play, and some people would rather have double points.

Jinkies · Aug 05, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

This.

This is where the heart of the matter is.

While the OP is whining that the item-taker is being scammed, they know very well that the cost of a key is directly linked to the frequency of rare, high-costed items.

You can't win if you don't play, and some people would rather have double points.

Nearly everyone would choose double points. Next to noone, now, would choose to have double drops. The price of a Z Key is not at all linked to the frequency if a rare high costed item as all the very high costing items drop with higher frequency from other places. The price of a Key is linked to the availability of the keys, which atm, is less common due to the lack of XTH. Futher making this service a scam.

Miss Puddles · Aug 05, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

It's essentially a lottery. You are never guaranteed an expensive item, but you always get SOMEthing. It just wasn't that EL tonic you were hoping for.
That said, your quotation of the EULA isn't holding up your argument of the ZTH being a scam:
"The following may not be traded or sold:
lottery" tickets or other similar "chances to win".

novawhiz · Aug 05, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Did you guys know people used the Zchest before the title came out?

ya weird i know.

So i payed 6k for each firewater/tome/crap drop
now people have the opportunity to pay 2k for each firewater/tome/crap drop

seems kinda kool to me.

NoXiFy · Aug 05, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

NCsoft doesn't care about the ToS unless someone curses in all chat. I know this because I have read through the ToS several times and reported people for violations only to get the response: "Oh, we don't care about those really". Namely the account rule, if you get banned... you're NOT supposed to return to Guild Wars without written permission. And the Guild syncing Champ points thing, that they also dont care about.

Coverticus · Aug 05, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Nearly everyone would choose double points. Next to noone, now, would choose to have double drops.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. And I'll speak from personal experience and conversations I have had on this very matter with people in game.

(There are of course players wishing to have this title, which is fine).

The Zaishen title is basically a glorified gold sink, has no effect on the game - apart from giving you a spanky emote to play with every 30 seconds if you choose to. And for most, its not worth it.

If you are chasing the Wisdom title, your monthly supply of free keys (when available) add to this slowly. Not to mention the chance of the rarer drop - be it a weapon, EL Tonic or (to a lesser degree) an Elite tome which 'could' fetch more than the current value of the Z-Key if the player wishes to sell it.

Because people are quite happy with this (even though the odds are crap), using someone else to open the chest with their key is indeed beneficial. They may get more IDs thrown into their equation. Or more. And the title chaser gets his much needed boost.

Take chests in general. Before the titles came out (though I know this still happens), if someone wasn't opening a chest, that person could be asked to use a key. Therefore a player would get 2 chances at the rare drop in UW/FoW for example and only had the cost of the key, which he/she would have used anyway at some point. Did people cry about this being a "scam"? Of course not. It was a gentleman's agreement. As is this service.

The only scam really is, of course, if said service provider runs off with a rare drop!

Sorry if I've repeated what other's have said. This thread is really going round in circles with valid points being put across but it's like running at a brick wall - ain't getting through

novawhiz · Aug 05, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Nearly everyone would choose double points. Next to noone, now, would choose to have double drops.

No offense, but not that many people are as e-peen obsessed as you and im pretty sure more people would rather just have the fun of gambling with x2 drops than the get a title that lets them feel super 1337 and sit in Kamadan showwing off all day.

JASON626 · Aug 05, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

this whole thread is flawed when a title can be bought in any amount of ways. If z title was worth anything to you you should complain about z keys being customized or untradable like z cions. So titles were closer to being earned.

Elephantaliste · Aug 05, 2009, 08:13 PM // 20:13

lol ! lottery or not, getting nothing or a garanteed booby prize is quite the same...

using zaishen service is not really different from coffer of whisper : a lottery.

--> a waste of money.

Dosearius Takerius · Aug 05, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Who, exactly, are any of you 'scam-mongers' to say how someone should or should not...

1) get more drops

or

2) gain their title?

Play your own game and let others play theirs the way THEY see fit.

Grunntar · Aug 05, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I think that the OP has this partially right, but completely reversed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

6. The client is 4k - 600g = 3.4k in the hole, the provider has made a 4k profit, in terms of title points.

Title points have *zero* value. You can't trade them, sell them, nor buy them. There is no "title point" merchant in Guild Wars.

So if you correct this assertion in your "math" and apply it to point #6, the client is 3.4K in the hole, and he provider is 4K in the hole! So the CLIENT is the one scamming!! The poor provider gave up one of his valuable keys for something that has absolutely no value in the game! Shame on the client!

Want to argue that the provider has no grounds to stand on because he/she is the one offering the service? Well, the same applies to the client, who is seeking out the service!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

my math doesn't lie you cannot argue that at this exchnage rate

Umm, I can if I want!

And I think that I just did...

Jinkies · Aug 06, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunntar

I think that the OP has this partially right, but completely reversed.

Title points have *zero* value. You can't trade them, sell them, nor buy them. There is no "title point" merchant in Guild Wars.

So if you correct this assertion in your "math" and apply it to point #6, the client is 3.4K in the hole, and he provider is 4K in the hole! So the CLIENT is the one scamming!! The poor provider gave up one of his valuable keys for something that has absolutely no value in the game! Shame on the client!

Want to argue that the provider has no grounds to stand on because he/she is the one offering the service? Well, the same applies to the client, who is seeking out the service!

Umm, I can if I want!

And I think that I just did...

The key words there were "In terms of title points" Many titles contain value because you had to pay to get them. Just because you do not value title points does not mean others do not. Just look at nearly every other title in the game, sweet, ale, party, zaishen, wisdom, treasure, lucky, unlucky, skill hunter etc.. you can even argue hero rank is because you can pay people to farm fame for you.. lol. Are you telling me nobody values these titles and couldnt care less about getting them?

Martin Alvito · Aug 06, 2009, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

Many titles contain value because you had to pay to get them. Just because you do not value title points does not mean others do not.

Logic and sarcasm have been lost on you once again.

Here's what he's saying: you're stipulating that a zkey has a value of 4k. You're deriving this from opportunity cost - what the zkey could be resold for on the open market.

His point is: points to a title track have no inherent "market" value on them. A player that doesn't care about points to the Zaishen title track or drops has zero utility for that zkey. The player could give the zkey away and be just as satisfied as if he kept the zkey. People like this do exist. I know this because my wife is one of them. You just don't interact with them; you power trade, so you interact with a biased sample of the GW population. On several levels.

Who wins and who loses in the "points for drops" trade depends completely upon the relative preferences of the two players making the exchange. The case he stipulates is silly (the trade never happens in equilibrium), but it gets the point across. You're stipulating that the converse of the situation we agree is "silly" is the ONLY way to look at the trade of points for drops. It isn't. If your goal is to maximize the long run profit function, sure, you're right. But if that's not your goal, or it's not how you have fun and enjoy the game, then there's no compelling reason to look at the exchange in that way. If someone likes to gamble, better they do it in GW, no? Harder to wreck your life that way.

You and I might agree that such a player is stupid and only hurting themselves, although I'm only willing to start tossing that label around when that player expresses dissatisfaction about not having items they want.

This exchange is a win-win for some sets of players. The others don't make the trade. The whole thing takes care of itself.

fenix · Aug 06, 2009, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Okay, okay. Jinkies is stubbornly arguing based on the assumption that everyone wants the title and no one wants drops.

Therefore, discussion won't occur. Thread over.